HOW TO DROP YOUR WAY TO A FORTUNE.
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| Millionaire Academy Interview. |
Jim If there’s an essence to what I teach, it’s that whole reality that human beings, regardless of the amount of money involved in the relationship, buy with their heart and they remember people who remember them as people. So, all I’ve really done in my life is try to help companies and help their sales people systematize the emotion side of educating and communicating and appreciating and maintaining contact with people whether they have gotten to be too small for the sales rep to continually personally sell to, or whether they’re so far distant that it just wouldn’t make sense to go see them personally, or whether they are a very slow adopting but real opportunity, that’s really the micro system. My life is to try to figure out a way to make software automate and systematize that process so that the sales rep could put somebody on an appropriate campaign with a keystroke and have most of the heavy lifting, like the printing and the stuffing and the folding, everything but the signing done by an admin
Michael: Very nice to meet you, Jim. I had first heard about you when I first got into marketing, and my first exposure to marketing was Jay Abraham’s Protégé Training Seminar. I remember the name very well, and I remember listening to you as one of the presenters at that seminar. How did you get into, or even get hooked up with Jay Abraham?
Jim: I had a client who owned a string of dry cleaning stores. Very wealthy man who owned a yacht that he kept harbored in Maui, and he invited me to join him and five or six of his senior executives in Hawaii for a five day retreat. They were going to play golf and since I can’t handle the tropic sun, I stayed back on the yacht. Sort of in passing on his way out to play golf one morning, he pitched me an whole subscription of Jay’s “For your marketing eyes only” or “Marketing Genius” newsletter—beautiful gray bound little newsletters. I started reading this guy’s material and probably had the same experience you had, and thousands of others have had, and that is a light bulb started going on like magic. It was like everything I had ever believed in or ever read or ever studied, was laid out for me in perfect order.
Michael: What were you doing at that time?
Jim: I was doing marketing consulting, helping people learn how to go to market by identifying certain customers.
Michael: How long had you been in it at that time?
Jim: Probably five or six years.
Michael: How did you get into marketing consulting? What were you doing then?
Jim: I was an office equipment company, and sold it in 1986, and had enough money to do your life’s dream and that had always been to do sales force processing, consulting. Trying to figure out how to arm sales people with the power tools that are so necessary to be involved in what I call the multiple contact, or the high value, or the high complex sale.
Michael: Have you been operating out of Seattle all this time?
Jim: Since 1977.
Michael: Where are you from originally?
Jim: Kentucky. In any event, I got back to Seattle and finished up the work for the client, but I never forgot this material about Jay Abraham. He had let me have two or three of the copies to study more intently, and on the back cover of one of the copies was an 800 number. So, I figured this stuff must be seven or eight years old—the copies I was looking at. I figured a guy that smart, imagine what he’s learned between then and now. So, I just wanted to call that 800 number and get on their mailing list and see what else they had for sale.
Michael: Right. Jim: Well, it was a Sunday afternoon, two o’clock in the afternoon, I called the 800 number, and this guy says “Jay Abraham.” So, I told him who I was and I said I feel like I owe you a lot of money. He said it was nice of you to call. How do you want to start paying me? Doesn’t that sound like Jay?
Michael: Yes, it does.
Jim: First conversation. So in any event, that lead to me telling him that story, and him asking me what I did and I told him that I was on the sales side, basically committed to helping sales people succeed by using the emerging technology that was even then still in the province of the mainframe. The airlines had the frequent flyer program, but nobody else had the capability at all of helping sales people stay in touch. So, I told him about that and he said why don’t you come down. We don’t do much on sales, but he said that’s a big part of marketing. Why don’t you come down and do a talk for us. So, I did and I got invited back to seven or eight of them. I got to sit on stage and played master of ceremonies for a couple of them.
Michael: I remember you up there. It was like a panel. So, was it a good experience for you? Jim: It was one of those transformational experiences in life when you find out things you’ve been doing intuitively and learning the way he learned them had been written down. Even though there were no rules, there were certainly a set of ideas and strategies that had been tested and proven by others. He became such a great foundation for my continued learning, as you have, in the methodologies of succeeding in the field of persuasion. Interest though, has always been in business-to-business side of the sector; I’ve never really done much in consumer. My entire career for the last 18 years now has been devoted to one mission, and that is to teach people how to nurture.
Michael: So, what does that mean? What does it mean to teach people how to nurture?
Jim: It’s an amazing word. If you think about it, it’s one of the few words that you can never say in anger. Nurturing has a peaceful softness to it. It should. It’s origin was in the Babylonian language, and defines breast feeding—nutra. That has translated to nurture, which essentially I call intensive caring. When you nurture a child, it’s more than just feeding them. You know, when you nurture a friendship, or nurture a client, or nurture a business, or nurture an alliance. Nurturing is intensive caring. It’s more than just feeling I love you, it’s showing it. That’s where so many companies as the sales cycle has gotten longer and the products have gotten more complex, it becomes more and more difficult for companies to help sales reps maintain those personal touches often over a year’s long selling cycles, buying cycles.
Michael: What are some of the problems that face these companies? Why is it so difficult for them to do that?
Jim: Well, first of all, sales people are verbal people. They are trained from almost the day they go into this business to present verbally, but they’re really never trained to write well at all. The most hated sales activity for most sales people is proposal writing. And so as a result, you can imagine how difficult it might be for the sales rep who is compensated for a relentless pursuit of low hanging fruit, is not compensated for pampering seedlings, not pampering baby plants that will grow someday into giants. They’re paid for picking low hanging fruit. So now to expect that they would recognize a high potential, but long seduction, and then also to have the bandwidth in the midst of this hurly burly make quota this month, we’ve got to hit the numbers this quarter, to slow down a minute and write a few love notes. Send a copy of an article, find a book, nurture them, pamper the relationship, demonstrate by how you behave, let them see what it will be like to work with you by how you sell.
Michael: Was this some of the material that you really brought in to that Protégé Seminar that Jay talks about all the time?
Jim: If you remember the slug that was a mailing piece that we were doing at the time. Slug was designed to be a lumpy, but the slug was also a metaphor, remember? It was the sluggish sales force almost always creates a sluggish bottom line, which naturally teases into the letter and naturally will get the letter read, and probably remembered longer than the same content without the slug attached to it.
Michael: Now that was a long time ago. Where did you get the idea for the lumpy mail—the slug?
Jim: It was just basically doing research for Microsoft, helping them figure out how do we get sales appointments for analytical beanbag type sales people. We were helping them develop go to market strategies, but there were some 10,000 partners at that time around the world. We created something then called the nurture selling process, which essentially was really a campaign of going to market by helping the individual partners identify, first of all, who are the most likely suspects in a territory and some various strategies on how to do that. Many came from Jay. And then after identifying them to individualize, get it into a database and begin to build a dossier and a profile on the people that must be influenced over time. Then we taught them Step 3 as to how to make automated processes—you mentioned autoresponder—that was an automated process. How to use automated processes technology to make certain that no one ever got forgotten and that all of the critical messages were woven into touches over time and took the problem off of the sales person’s shoulders, didn’t require that they suddenly become poetic and articulate and literate, and had great memories. We just automated the process for them. Part of our company was early on even, actually helping companies design their strategies, and actually create the campaigns, and write the letters, and then it evolved into a consulting firm. That’s basically all we do now is help companies train their teams to utilize some of the fabulous software that’s become available for even the smallest business today that makes marketing a simple administrative process.
Michael: Give me a success story. Give me a small to medium sized business.
Jim: I’ll give you a failure first.
Michael: All right. Tell me about a failure first.
Jim: I did something early on, even while I was working with Jay, I did something called a Nurture Boot Camp. Let’s take, in this case, a financial advisor who realizes they’ve got to go to market, and they’ve got to become known to and influential with business owners. So, I would put on a boot camp for a weekend, inviting the planner to come with their administrator, and maybe one of their go to market reps and spend a weekend with other teams and me here in Seattle and I would teach them how to create a Drip Campaign.
Michael: How much would you charge for the boot camp?
Jim: Oh, I think it was like $15,000 or something like that for three days. One guy came and we’ll call him Bud, but he was a fairly well off financial advisor. He was into a six-figure income and was going for a seven-figure income, but you could tell his personality was not a schmoozer. He was an analytical. He was a brilliant, brilliant market timer and tactician on stocks and with computers, but he had no more personality than a twig. So fortunately, the person that came along with him was his marketing person. In fact, Bud stood up during the opening session and he said just don’t try to teach me how to write no damn love letters. You don’t have to do that. His cohort said, don’t worry about it, I’ll take care of the love letters for him, we’ll just get him to sign them. So nonetheless, we went through the program and the guy went home. We stayed in touch for probably about six months, but I wasn’t getting much feedback, like Jay used to complain about, I wasn’t getting much feedback from him, and then you get busy and you move on. So finally about two years later, I ran into this guy at a financial planning conference over at a big resort in Phoenix—The Phoenician—and there was a trade show floor and I was going by to drop off something at a booth and it was before it had opened, and I looked up and here comes this Bud. And he sees me. And he ducks me. He literally ducked down an aisle. So I figured, wait a minute now. What’s going on? Why is this guy ducking me? So I went after him. And I found him and said why’d you duck me anyhow? And he said, well, I’m embarrassed. I said why. He said well you did all that work for us and I spent all that money, and I ain’t doing your damn nurturing stuff. And I said you’re not? And he said well, I ain’t doing it the way you said to do it. I said how are you doing it? He said you know I never forgot about the birthday cards. You know, the older you get the fewer you get. That got to me and I knew it was a good idea. But, I knew I was never going to sit down and write love notes on birthday cards. One Saturday morning I was working in my office and some guy was in there stringing cable to put in a new high speed line for our computers and he said I started talking to him about it while he had mine down, and I told him I’ve got all of my clients birthdays in my database. Would there be any way that you could make those things come up on a screen like a screen saver everyday, just a name and a phone number just to remind me maybe to call them or send them flowers or something? The guy said hey that’s no problem. I’ll do that for you. So next thing you know, Monday morning when he walks in sure enough, there floating on the screen are six names. He’s telling me this story. So he said, I just punched the button on the first one and it dialed the phone for me. I got the person’s answering machine and I kind of bungled around a little bit, but I said this is Bud so and so, and I’m your financial advisor. I’m just calling to wish you a happy birthday and I hope you have many more and all the best and if I can do to help you have a better one, just give me a call. And he left his phone number and he hung up. He said he was so giddy almost because he had found a way to be intimate without having to get personal. So he said he popped through those next nine names and everyone of them were a voicemail, and he said that night he could hardly wait to get home and tell his wife that he had discovered a way of systematizing touches to customers without having to get intimate with them. And about that time the phone rang and guess who was calling? It was the number one phone call he made that morning. This lady, he said he thought she was drunk because he wasn’t sure whether she was sick or drunk. She was sniffling and blowing her nose, and she was crying on the phone. And he said is there anything I can do to help you. And she said don’t you think you’ve done enough for one damn birthday? And he said what have I done? Did I get the date wrong? And she goes, oh no you’ve got the date right, all right and she started crying again. And he said what’s wrong with me wishing you a happy birthday? She said it’s not the fact, it’s the fact that on my 50th birthday, you’re the only person who remembered in my whole life and she said I still can’t get over it. The only person that remembers me having a birthday is someone I pay money to for advice. He kept trying to calm her down and said I hope you know I wouldn’t have caused pain, I’m so sorry that I did that. He said he felt like he was in a trap, and she said, oh god, I wish you were a stockbroker. He said I am a stockbroker. And she said, no you’re not; you’re a financial planner. I’ve got a stockbroker; he’s a jerk.
Michael: That’s hilarious.
Jim: And he said, what do I got to do to convince you that I’m actually licensed as a stockbroker? He said I don’t talk about it because it’s only a part of what I do for my clients. She said you mean to say you could do a transaction? He said I could do it right now. She said can you do it right now? He said I’ll come over right now, and I’ll bring a cake if you want. So next thing you know, he’s over there, and she’s got a $10 million roll over. She didn’t want her stockbroker to get another penny. He looked at me and kind of smiled. You taught me a lesson that day. I never did learn how to write notes, but I have learned how to sing happy birthday in six languages. I think if there’s an essence to what I teach, it’s that whole reality that human beings, regardless of the amount of money involved in a relationship, buy with their heart, and they remember people who remember them as people.
Michael: There’s no doubt.
Jim: So, all I’ve really done in my life is systematize, try to help companies and help their sales people systematize the emotional side of educating, and communicating, and appreciating, and maintaining contact with people whether they have gotten to be too small for the sales rep to continually personally sell to or whether they’re so far distant that it just wouldn’t make sense to go see them personally, or whether they’re a very slow adopting but real opportunity, that’s really the micro system. My life is to figure out a way to make software automate and systematize that process, so that a sales rep can put somebody on an appropriate campaign with a key stroke and have most of the heavy lifting, like the printing, and the stuffing, and the folding, everything but the signing, done by an admin.
Michael: So you told me that was a failure. Now do you have a success story on a small to medium size business?
Jim: Well, there’s a young man who came to hear me speak at a conference down in Palm Desert, I don’t know, six years ago I guess. And he broughthis admin because he started in the life insurance business with New York Life and he was finishing his rookie year and he was realizing that he didn’t have a process for meeting the right people. And he heard me do this talk on nurture, and I had at that time a very simple kit at $1,500. It was called the Nurture Solution for Financial Advisors. It was a complete 12-month on Microsoft Word disk, go to market plan. All they had to do was finalize it with their name and any particulars about their story and maybe articles about them as the attachments. But, I wrote the letters including the enclosures, and the slugs, and all of that stuff. And this guy heard me speak and talk about how nurture was truly a cure for the cold call because literally it had been proven to cause ideal prospects to call the sender when they are ready to buy because they remembered them. So he heard me say that, he went to the back of the room and bought this box, and I never heard from him for like two years. And then, maybe three years go by, and I did get a call from his admin, named Laurie, and she said Brian needs 100 of your audiotapes that you talk about nurture. It was an interview, very much like you’re doing with me. I said for what? Well, he’s gotten sort of famous with the company and he’s been asked to make speeches and so he said his total success comes just because he bought that simple kit and plugged it in and used it.
Michael: Now you had developed this for financial planners, and this was a nurture program you were marketing to financial planners?
Jim: You could use it on ACT, or Goldmine, or Feeble, or Sales Logic, or Microsoft CRM or any of them. I mean, if you had a programmer or if you had any kind of skills to make software do things you wanted and had word processing skills, all you had to do was import these letter campaigns and give it to an admin and say put those on my letterhead, and put them on my desk once a month for signature. Michael: Now you customized and wrote all the letters and all the nurturing communications within that. How many were there in that?
Jim: There were a dozen in the prospecting plan, and a dozen in the retention plan.
Michael: So, you’ve got 24 communications that a financial planner is going to use in your nurture program.
Jim: And an audio based workshop, a full day, on the whole concept of nurturing relationships.
Michael: And most of these financial planners are doing nothing but cold calling, they make the sale, wham-bam-thank you ma’am; they never call these people.
Jim: They get referrals and then they follow up and they find out that it’s not a hot referral and they dump it. Nurture just let’s them persist without calling up and saying did you change your mind yet.
Michael: All right, so let’s use this as an example. I’ve got this software, and I have Goldmine, which is some sort of contact management software. And then I implement and customize my letters to fit my particular market, and then it’s systematized. So, I know if I make a contact with Jim Cecil today, and you’re interested in some financial planning, you are in my system, and you’re going to hear from me probably 24 times. How long does the campaign go for?
Jim: Right now, in the financial planner’s community, it’s four years.
Michael: Four years.
Jim: Yes, because most of the experts are saying that the truly affluent will often take four to five years before they are ready to make a change from their current source.
Michael: Let’s say I’m a financial planner. I’ve got your system. Give me specifics on how these communications are going to be delivered to my prospects.
Jim: First of all, I tell them to start slowly because when you start using personalized contacts and mail, it has to be perfect. If I call you Mr. Cecile and your name is Cecil, and I do that in an automated process, I’m going to make you mad 20 times. I call it scrubbing the database. That’s why I tell them start with your 20 most important clients and then start with the retention plan.
Michael: What’s that?
Jim: Well, that’s a 12-step for your current customers and give that to an admin and have them put it on your best letterhead, and put it on your desk for signature. And just start with your top 20. And then by the end of the third month, you will probably make a phone call. It’s called for somewhere between the 4th, 5th, and 6th call contact. And it’s basically just a permission call. I’ve been writing to you. A - I wanted to find out if I had your permission to continue to do that, if it seems relevant, if there’s anything in particular I can do, blah-blah-blah.
Michael: The communications before those three months, are these long communications, are they designed to educate, are they just thinking of you, how are you doing, if you need anything give me a call?
Jim: All of the above, but most importantly though, they are tightly focused. For example, the ones for financial advisors was written for financial advisors who had targeted the owners of small and medium business enterprises, up to about $100 million in size because in the financial planning world, most of the experts say that’s where the affluence is in America. It’s in the business owners. So, if you’re going to target rather than just taking a mailing list of a zip code, you identify the business owners that you have some ability to provide real value to them other than just your financial planning. So, I tell people to narrow a niche. If you’re going to go prospecting, figure out who it is that you can really help first, and then figure out what you’ve learned that would be useful to them even if they didn’t hire you. Make sure all of that is a part of your communiqué so that a person, as I said earlier, often people will find out how you will serve them by watching how you sell them. So if you’re a giver, if the things you send them benefit them and don’t cost them anything, and they are a true gift from you, you make far more impact than if you’re just writing stories about yourself. So, a nurture campaign has been carefully studied over the last 12 years in 20 countries across the world where it’s currently used by major corporations like Microsoft, but mainly used by their reseller partners.
Michael: Is this Jim Cecil’s nurture campaign?
Jim: Yes, for financial advisors. It’s only one of eight industries where we’ve created such a go to market campaign that allows almost anyone utilizing modern software, CRM software…
Michael: What’s that stand for?
Jim: CRM is customer relationship management software. So it’s very much like
Michael: Contact database type.
Jim: Exactly.
Michael: What are some other industries that you have nurture campaigns for?
Jim: Especially in the technology fields, companies that are integrators of software like Microsoft Certified Partners, or IBM Certified Partners. Anyone that must sell high ticket or high tech solutions to high level executives in businesses and corporations. We’ve created a whole series of go to market plans for them. But also in the financial services, we’ve done some of the largest banks in the United States to help their individual loan officers or account development officers to go to market. We have a complete program for property and casualty insurance industry, and for the employee benefits industry, and for the mortgage banking industry, and for real estate. We pretty well covered the ten industries that have the largest sales forces in the world, and created pre-written and prestrategized go to market campaigns for a sales rep or for those companies that want to have customized go to market campaigns written and utilizing those customer relationship software.
Michael: So a company will hire your firm to develop a complete campaign. What do you charge for a service like that?
Jim: You know that’s kind of like how much gas mileage will a car get?
Michael: Exactly. I guess it all depends.
Jim: If a company, individual, like I said, if you go to the website and buy the 21 best strategies that I’ve ever discovered for nurturing customers, $4.
Michael: Now obviously with what you know, and the experience with Jay Abraham, you and I both know there’s all kinds of aspects in marketing. You settled on nurture, this continual, consistent, soft, sensitive, nurturing campaign. Why have you chosen this particular strategy compared to any other marketing strategy and what results do you see this strategy compared to other marketing strategies? You could do different marketing. Obviously, I think you found something that really works. Can you expand on that?
Jim: Well the biggest problem I believe, if you look at where the money is wasted in marketing, it is almost always the biggest amount of waste are the opportunities not explored, or not persisted. There’s some wonderful research on business to business, by the way, all of this is business to business, but on leads in business to business, an average lead, if it’s a trade show lead or an advertising inquiry, it’s usually 60 to 65 days before the person is responded to.
Michael: Right.
Jim: There’s a problem.
Michael: Absolutely.
Jim: There’s a second, even worse problem, and that is how leads are handled. They are distributed to sales people, or dealers, and the average rep will make three attempts to reach the person inquiring. And if they do not receive at least a warm response among those three voicemails, they’re over. They never make another contact. And that’s usually done in the first 90 days. It’s really interesting. If you analyze the buyer’s side, the average lead that comes into a seller, the average that buys within 90 days, is under 10%. So that means all of the sales activity that trying to sort through leads is aborted by the end of 90 days, and yet most of the buying activity happens after the sixth month. In fact, 31% buy after the 24th month. Yet most sales people stop any kind of seduction or pursuit primarily because maybe somebody’s schedule didn’t coordinate with the phone calls they were getting. Maybe they just didn’t have you high enough on a priority to call you back. It didn’t change the fact that they had pain that caused them to inquire. They just weren’t ready to talk yet. And yet, the company that received those leads, that paid hundred of dollars for the leads, allow them to be aborted after three attempts. So, nurture came along and said wait a minute. What would happen if after the sales reps had given up whatever their tolerance was, and yet because of some information you received on that lead that said they were qualified otherwise as a prospect, why not put them in a drip plan. On behalf of the sales rep, drip on them for six months or 12 months. The sales rep doesn’t even have to be there. But at least stay in touch with them. At least acknowledge them. So yes, there are some incredible stories of companies that have leveraged 15, and 20, and 30% gains just out of orphaned customers, customers that just weren’t big enough any more to merit live sales reps, or especially the orphaned leads.
Michael: People’s lives are like a moving river, there are always changes, there are divorces, there are deaths, there are changes in careers, there are new opportunities, it’s always changing. And as long as you keep in touch with them, you never know when you’re going to get someone on that upswing. Jim: You talk to top producers in the mortgage business, they teach their top producers to plan on making at least 150 contacts before you give up.
Michael: Wow.
Jim: That’s 12 years.
Michael: Top producers are being trained that?
Jim: Top producers are being trained to make the system work that will allow you to stay in touch on a monthly basis for 12 years.
Michael: Now let me ask you this. What percentage of people in the mortgage game are top producers?
Jim: Three to 5%.
Michael: Three to 5%.
Jim: Over a million a year.
Michael: And the rest are probably making how many contacts?
Jim: None. They don’t even send you a thank you note. And do you know why? It’s not because they don’t have good sense, it’s not because they don’t have good hearts, it’s because they don’t have a process. People ask me why do you keep working? I keep working because great companies have made great software that now have taken something that was a very esoteric, albeit intelligent way to build a business, and made it simple. Microsoft CRM was launched about a year and a half ago. Michael: So, let’s talk about the software, the actual tool I can put on my computer. As I’m listening to you and talking to you, I’ve got the idea and tell me about this software and how I’m going to be able to use it. What is it going to do for me? What tools does it provide today that it maybe didn’t provide 15 years ago when you were doing these seminars.
Jim: Remember Act? Act was what I call the ultimate gunslingers tool. It had a little bit of everything on it, but fundamentally it was just a Rolodex. When Act first came along, I called it the gunslingers tool because I thought about the sales reps who handled these enormous territories and had to keep a huge amount of data in their minds as they went from town to town and they sure as heck needed to take everything with them they were going to need a trip because there wasn’t anything to support them when they got out there. Nothing like the Internet was available. So, Act came along and created one of the great Rolodexes of all times. And they called it a contact manager.
Michael: Were they the first in the game?
Jim: No, that goes way back even ten years before Act. But, Act was the first one that was built by a sales rep, a guy named Pat Sullivan, who was a former 3M sales rep—big territory. And he also was a computer geek. So, he knew what he was doing and he knew sales. It wasn’t just building technology. That’s why Act is still the best selling brand in contact management in the world and the largest in the world.
Michael: Did he sell out or his is still with them?
Jim: He sold out to a company called Best Software in London and they are the biggest in back office. And so, the Act group now has Act on the low end and then they have something called Sales Logics on the mid-market.
Michael: So, this guy was a sales rep, developed a system for his own territory, and then once he had it developed, he probably starting sharing it with other…
Jim: That’s exactly the story. He became a multi, multi, multi millionaire. So, that has now evolved into, for example, on the Microsoft product, which I’m so excited about for a couple of reasons. Number one, Microsoft built a product on top of Outlook. Now, if you know that 90% of the people in business use Outlook for their email systems, Microsoft has already got a product that everybody knows how to use. All they did was expand it to make it useful for sales people. Michael: What’s it called?
Jim: It’s called Microsoft CRM.
Michael: Is it new or has it been out?
Jim: It’s up to version 1.2, so it’s been out about a year and a half.
Michael: What does it cost for the software?
Jim: That’s the beauty of it. It’s under $500 class. Most importantly though, with one of Microsoft’s partners down in Atlanta, a company called Ibyss came to me about the same time that Microsoft was working on their product and said why don’t we build a nurture module for the Microsoft CRM product. So, using his programming skills, at that point 14 years of doing dripping the hard way, we built the nurture module, which now is fully integrated and is available anywhere Microsoft is sold.
Michael: Your nurture model you built for this software, was it designed to sell the software?
Jim: No, to go to market with this software. So, it goes on the Microsoft. It snaps onto Microsoft’s CRM software making it possible for any user then to set up automated campaigns—drip campaigns.
Michael: But your nurture model you built for them was to introduce the software or sell the software?
Jim: Not only sell the software, but then for the users, their partners to use it to go to market and to sell it to their customers.
Michael: Is it all 100% online or is some of it designed…
Jim: It’s online. It is also resident when you’re not online in Outlook. So, the rep is never out of touch with the database. And the online price is pretty much the same as everybody else’s for online. It’s that the larger the company, the more likely they’re going to be on a Microsoft platform. And if it’s on a Microsoft platform, their IT department is a lot more comfortable with a Microsoft customer relationship management product. So in any event, the reason I’m so excited about this is that knowing that Microsoft is the largest software company and knowing that when they get their eyes set on an application, they usually dominate and since they already have over 900 million people that wake up their computer every day with Microsoft Office—did you know that, 900 million—well, as Power Point and Word and Excel and all these incredible office tools were to added to the Office suite, it became more powerful. And their plan is to put Microsoft CRM as just another part of the office tool, which means it will be in more place that sales people need software than any other software in history could ever imagine. I’m so excited about it.
Michael: Give me an example. I’ve got a business. I have people who inquire about hard to find marketing seminars. I get this software. I load it onto my computer. I use Outlook. What’s the first thing I’m going to do?
Jim: Identify your top 20 most important prospects.
Michael: All right. So, I’ve got the names, addresses, phone numbers, email addresses all that. Do I have to type these in manually into the thing?
Jim: You could import them if you buy them from a list source. If you have them on some other—actually you could import them into Microsoft CRM.
Michael: Let’s say I have a database. I import them into this system. With this software, do I have a drip system in place or am I going to be…
Jim: It’s in place. In fact, you get a prospecting plan that is the skeleton, a template you build out…
Michael: And modify?
Jim: Right. And then you get the retention plan; the customer retention plan automatically comes with every module.
Michael: So, that’s already in the software; skeletons that I can modify for no matter what I’m doing?
Jim: Yes.
Michael: That’s pretty good. And you designed with your research and years of experience in knowing how to do this; this is what you’ve put together for them.
Jim: Correct. We have also created something with another partner called the Nurture Institute. And that’s for companies that are leasing. They have 150 locations.
Michael: U.S. leasing?
Jim: Yes. And they are buying Microsoft CRM and affixing nurture marketing as the go to market strategies for over 600 of their sales people around the country. So, they basically need training at every one of their branches or a place to send various people for various skill sets. The Nurture Institute was founded by a former Microsoft training company that is now doing specialized application training. So, now if a company has 50 offices and they want their people to go away for training for a day in their particular part of job, it’s already in place.
Michael: They’ll bring their people to training or an institute or a seminar that you put?
Jim: I don’t, but that actually this company puts on.
Michael: They put on.
Jim: Using the materials we created.
Michael: You provided them with training that they can give to their own people?
Jim: Yes. And we are certifying Microsoft partners all over the world right now to sell the nurture module with Microsoft CRM.
Michael: So the Institute will really train you specifically the best way to use…
Jim: Absolutely how to go to market, how either write your own plans or write your own letters or how to work with ad agency or creative person to get your campaigns into writing. There are samples. It’s an amazing program considering the relatively low investment that a company can make.
Michael: Talk to me about your experience and you’ve done over your lifetime to come to the conclusion of what to put in these nurturing campaigns and what makes them so powerful compared to someone who just designs off the fly some letter campaign that goes out to their customers?
Jim: In most letter campaigns, it isn’t that way, off the fly, are basically about the sender, which is automatic landfill material. I don’t care about you. I want to know about my pain. I want somebody that understands where I hurt. So that is why I started focusing almost the day I met Jay on niche. Find a group, a type of business or group of people that you have a special feeling for that you really would enjoy helping all their life. And then commit yourself to helping them because once you know that niche, another thing I teach our clients, when you’re building your database, make sure as you build a file on a customer there are two data fields every time. One of them is called pain. The other one is called passion for his pain. What keeps this individual awake at night about their job? I don’t care what it is. There are usually three things that bother them most about their job. It can be turnover of employees. It can be making quota. It can be finding the right kind of customers; whatever it is, but there are always three pains. And then I say find out what their passion is. Find out two or three things that get them up early on the weekends. What’s their passion? Is it snowboarding or is it crippled children, is it their church, is it old people—what is it, what is their passion? Because once you can find out what a person’s pain is and what a person’s passion is—and by the way that’s easier to do when you’re working in a niche—and start wondering what can I say to them that will be relevant—just go to Google. Put in some of their pain and take a look at what has been published, what’s available for sale that’s just on the cure for that pain. So, you want to be welcomed in someone’s office, send them something that keeps them awake at night. Send them a cure. Same thing on the passion. If they’re hot for not for profit charity or whatever it is, study on that.
Michael: What’s more powerful? A certain amount of people react more strongly to pain and a certain amount of people react more strongly to pleasure?
Jim: 90/10—90% will do ten times more to move away from pain than they will to access pleasure. I will spend more on a diet than I will on fat prevention.
Michael: In your nurture system, these are more focused on pain because you know that’s what gets more results.
Jim: Yes. And after all, this is a business relationship between two business people. So, the relationship should be pretty far along before I start dabbling in your passions. There’s only so much I can say loving your grandkids. But there’s a lot I can say about hiring, training, staffing, computers; whatever’s keep them awake at night, somebody has already written the answers either in a book, condensed books, white papers, articles, publicity. There’s just thousand and thousands of things that will really be helpful, really value added included. So, part of my training is that if you don’t know your customer, don’t start writing to them about yourself. Study your customer. I feel sorry for people that sell to everybody because they don’t really know anybody. They don’t really have anything to focus their study on. They don’t really know who is in pain and what’s keeping them awake at night and how can we make that better. They don’t know how to build a relationship.
Michael: Give me one success story that you’re most proud of. It can be the first thing that pops out of your mind. It can be a small business…
Jim: Cancer treatment centers.
Michael: Tell me the story.
Jim: Cancer Treatment Centers of American is now the largest center for breast cancer in the country. They have four, building their fifth major hospital around the country. When I met them five years ago, they were getting 17,000 web hits a month from women recently diagnosed with that horrible disease. The owner of the foundation, the founder of the company was sitting in a CEO group when I was speaking that day on nurture.
Michael: How long ago was it?
Jim: Four years, maybe. I saw him light up and I saw him start writing furiously and he never stopped writing the three and a half hours I was presenting. I had no idea who he was or what he was doing. All I knew was that he was taking a lot more notes than I ever saw anybody take. It turned out his name was Richard Stevenson. He was the founder of the Cancer Treatment Centers of America. And so, he called me a few days later and he said, I think you found a major, major solution for us in this hospital. He starting telling me their mission was to help women, not only fight cancer and win with cancer, but to do it in an environment like the Ritz Carlton and to do it in the constraints of their insurance program. So, that’s what his foundation created. That’s what makes them different is that they treat every part of the body and the person and not just the disease. So in any event, he was telling me how all these phones would ultimately get funneled down to sales reps. They called them oncology specialists. But because of the increasing volume of web hits causing calls, they were finally getting to the place to where the sales reps could only make three follow up calls on any prospect. They had too many leads coming in.
Michael: And these leads were all generated from the website?
Jim: Yes, or their advertising would drive them to the website. So, these were all either caregivers or patients.
Michael: Did the website have a good amount of content that really…
Jim: Amazingly good content. In any event, there were naturally 95% of the people calling in never made a decision to come into one of their hospitals for whatever reason. But for those that did come in because every day a new flood of new opportunities came up, they basically had to stop the sales people from making on follow on calls after the third attempt. So, if you couldn’t decide by the third contact to make a decision to come in free to be evaluated at this hospital, they just basically quietly dumped you off the boat. So, he said drip is perfect. I’ll just take those people that we know we can’t talk to anymore unless they call us, but we could drip on them. We could write to them. So, they hired us to help them strategize what it would look like in software and in go to market campaign. We helped them. Fortunately, they had a really good programmer on staff and he took a contact manager they had been using and was able to customize it to do the drip program very inexpensively and very painlessly. We created a drip plan for their initial one for patients and then a similar plan if it was a caregiver that was inquiring. And essentially what those sales reps said to the patient after they have to tell them I can’t call you anymore, they said we stay in touch with people for years. Would it be all right if I stayed in touch and I put you on my mailing list and just write to you from time to time? And if you ever want to call me, my 800 number always works and I’d love to hear from. But you understand the rules. Follow me? Well, 99% said yes. When you’re dying, you’re pretty willing to take help from anybody. But the amazing thing was, since this is a private foundation and not Wall Street Journal stuff, I got to go to their board meeting the second year after they had done the nurture conversion and had actually begun doing. And he told me that they were at that point up to __ million in net found revenue off of what had previously been abandoned just in dripping.
Michael: Over two years.
Jim: Yes. Michael: How many drips was it? How many contacts, do you know?
Jim: They were designed to go 36 months. It had to be done very carefully, obviously, because often people with that disease are dying from the disease, so you don’t want to continue nurturing beyond that need. That’s why they were very careful.
Michael: What percentage was online through email and offline?
Jim: All by personal hand signed letters.
Michael: All by letters?
Jim: Yes. There’s a great book by John Naisbitt, years ago called, Megatrends. And he warned us. He said the higher the tech, the higher the human needs touch. So, as email becomes almost the default method of communications in business, the hand signed personal real letter has more power than it ever had.
Michael: That’s well stated. That is a great concept.
Jim: So, I’m just saying if this customer is a high enough potential value, revenue to you, or is teaching value to you that it would enhance your life to stay in touch with them, even though email may seem quicker and cheaper, believe me if you’ll test the impact, you’ll see that hand dripping beats the pants off of email campaigns. And I’ll grant you, our clients all want to blast emails. I tell them not until they become customers.
Michael: And once they become customers…
Jim: Now, you ask them are the things that I have been sending you appropriate? Is it useful to you? Would you like us to continue? How’s the frequency, once a month too frequent? Once a quarter okay? Let them decide and then do something about it.
Michael: Is there a standard that you have learned from your experience? What’s too much email? If you’re going to keep in touch with your customers, is twice a month too much, three times, or is there really no answer?
Jim: Well, then we have to say what is a customer and what is a prospect? What part of the buying process is that prospect in? If they’re in the decision process and you are a finalist, every hour is not excessive. But, if they are in early adoption phase, just exploring, getting ready to talk about budgets some day; once a month is frequently enough. See, that’s the sensitivity of a sales rep and that is what I think the delicate nature of nurturing is that every person—this is not like you put 10,000 people on a campaign and then sit back and clip coupons. This is every person is on their own campaign. And that means every time anyone in the company talks to that person, those notes have to be recorded so that anybody taking over that account can look at the last contact and see whether that was a phone call, whether you ran into them at trade show, whether they ordered something, or whether they got a drip letter.
Michael: And this software allows you to do all that?
Jim: Absolutely, it does it for you. We’ve had software doing this now personally for our company and we’re not huge. We have maybe 15,000 CEO’s in our database and we probably hand nurture 2,000 of those a month.
Michael: So, is this software set up to have your letters already formatted?
Jim: Here’s how it works. Once a campaign is created. Let’s say we create a campaign called slow drip. This is somebody that’s going to buy; they’re just not in a hurry. Let’s say it’s six times a year. So, the sales rep hangs up the phone and in my world looks at the screen and says what’s next?
You click on that and it said action plan. And it will make a drop down menu and you pick slow drip. You already know what those six letters are. So, you click initiate. That automatically, for you and any other sales rep putting people on plan, goes into a central administrator. Once a day in our office, Debbie, wakes up the computer and says let’s do nurture. It says okay, Debbie, today we have 161 cases. Did anybody die last night? She’s doing the audit on the database. Nobody died. She hits no; let’s go. It says feed me. To do today, I need 177 letterheads, 68 second sheets, 38 brochure pieces 401, 91 letter envelopes, 21 legal envelopes, load that paper stock in that order, hit print, go get coffee. The computer then grabs your name, says what plan is he on—slow drip—what step is he on—step 2. It grabs that person’s data, grabs that letter content, mail merges those, prints them out on the letterhead, prints out the envelope, goes back in the client’s file, records the fact that step 2 on slow drip plan was done today, and grabs the next name. So, all admin has to do is essentially get them hand signed and stuff them with enclosure, lick them, seal them, stamp them and mail them. All the sales rep had to do was sign it. That’s real world. That’s what sales rep will do. They’ll figure out who to stay in touch with if you give them the stay in touch process. And they’ll hand sign the pieces that you’ve written for them or they’ve written for you. But don’t ask them to write the stuff. Don’t ask them to find the articles or the white papers, or don’t ask them to run the printer and don’t ask them to do licking of the stamps. Get that done by UPS store or by an administrative employee. All you want that sales rep to do is to recognize the critical importance of maintaining in touch contact beyond that phone call. And get the sales rep to assign the right people to the right plan. Then when that plan has been fulfilled and executed by the administrative employee, they are willing to hand sign the letters and to personally make the phone calls that are called for by the plan. Now, you’ve got a sales machine.
Michael: That’s great.
Jim: Not just an exhortation to sales people they ought to stay in touch better.
Michael: So, you had this as a marketing consultant through this system. How do you approach a business and what do you look for in business whether you’re going to invest your time or develop a nurture system for them and how do you structure what you get out of it?
Jim: You asked a great question and first of all I see through the channel. I see through Microsoft certified partners. They are now about 11,000 in the United States market. They are the one who are selling Microsoft CRM and Microsoft Back Office and Word and everything else to their customers. So, they’re the ones who are getting into the solution with the customer. I don’t have to do any evangelizing. I have 10,000 partners out there potentially who, if I get them using nurture to go to market for themselves, they learn it and you know the story. Once you use, you lean. And what you know, you sell. So, when they go in, and clients are saying, I really like the software from Microsoft, but can you make my customers feel about me the way you made me feel about you? Well, that’s nurture. So, they say, can you get that done for me? The partner says, absolutely, all the way through the letters if you want. We’re connected with Cecil or his legion of writers all over the country.
Michael: So, you’re getting calls all the time?
Jim: All the time.
Michael: When someone calls, what do you do?
Jim: They go through an auditing process. We make sure that this is the right thing for them to do. The bad thing about nurture is that everybody falls in love with it. It makes sense for the one-man band as it does for the 100 law corporation. But I’ll tell you something; it is not a one-man band game. There’s just too much going on to try to do automated processes if you’re going to be your admin.
Michael: So, to do it right, you’re saying you need a team to handle this?
Jim: Absolutely. This is a system for managing the critical growth of a business for generations. So, it’s not like buying a postcard campaign out of the mail and then writing them and sending them.
Michael: So, if someone calls, you ask them a series of questions or your have a system to determine whether this could work for them.
Jim: Yes, and to see whether they have enough infrastructure and whether they have enough appetite and enough capital to fund the first year of a garden. Now, a typical client coming onboard with us just for their company is probably going to spend $100,000 the first year. Half of that is with out. Half of that is with software, enclosures and postage.
Michael: So, a client is going to spend $100,000 with you the first year?
Jim: With me and with the process of nurturing because they have to buy software, they may have to buy computers, they may have to buy stampsthey may have to pay some staff. So, you have 50 to us and 50 to nurturing for the first year.
Michael: Do you build something in it from a consulting perspective? Do you get a piece of the action for the increase of revenue?
Jim: I do not.
Michael: Up front?
Jim: Yes, we’re selling the tool and then we’re selling access to the people who can do the custom strategies if you don’t have staff for that.
Michael: Let’s say I don’t have the staff to do all the licking, stamping, printing and all that. You have sources to outsource all of that?
Jim: Nationwide UPS store. If you can get to a UPS store, you can get it fulfilled.
Michael: UPS store?
Jim: Yes. Kinko’s prints, but UPS store actually will assemble. They’ll take your letters and fold them. They’ll put the ballpoint pen in there. They’ll put the stamp on it.
Michael: Will UPS…
Jim: Sort them by zip code and mail them for you for 12-cents a package.
Michael: Does UPS store have a program like that?
Jim: Yes, every store in the world.
Michael: I have a UPS store right here. That’s who I use.
Jim: Ask them if they’ll do your mail fulfillment for you.
Michael: No kidding?
Jim: They’ll kiss you on both sides of your face.
Michael: I didn’t even know that was offered.
Jim: That’s the bulk of their business.
Michael: Every UPS store, every Mail Box, Etc. store does mail fulfillment?
Jim: Yes.
Michael: I had no idea.
Jim: I didn’t either.
Michael: At 12-cent apiece?
Jim: Twelve and a half cents.
Michael: Give me another story. The cancer story was great. Give me another real life story.
Jim: There’s a guy names Eric up in New Jersey. He had a company that had gotten to about $300,000 a year. He basically sells what they call help desk temporary employees. Do you know what a help desk is? Michael: Online help, right?
Jim: Yes, real time help desk. So, you can imagine that one of the fastest growing industries in the world is help desks. General Motors has over 11,000 of them. So, guess how hard it is to find somebody that’s trained on your help desk? So, that’s what he did. He built the business to train people for you and to put them out there as temporaries. Well, of course, they never ended up being temporary. They stayed on permanent assignment, but paid in temporary wages.
Michael: So, it’s an ongoing training nurture system?
Jim: What he needed was a method of going to market that he can control with postage stamps. So, he heard me speak about nurture. He called me and he started a campaign. He identified the 50 largest drug companies in New Jersey because they were the ones most likely to have expansion in their help desk. I wrote a drip marketing campaign aimed at the head of the help desk of each of those companies. It used a telemarketing firm to get the names and the addresses and all that for them. That company, before he sold it, got up to $23 million a year in 11 countries and he says and says to this day that his only go to market strategy was nurture. He never ran an ad. Never printed a brochure. Never did anything. Remember the guy I was telling you about in Wisconsin, the insurance guy from New York Life; he’s number 34 in the world now.
Michael: Wow.
Jim: And those seminars on how to build a professional practice by using nurture. And, of course, New York Life has hundreds and hundreds of their agents using nurture drip plans.
Michael: Can you tell me his name?
Jim: Brian Ruh.
Michael: Where’s he from? Jim: He’s in New Holstein, Wisconsin.
Michael: Interesting. He’s number what in the world?
Jim: 34 in the world.
Michael: What kind of insurance does he sell?
Jim: Life.
Michael: Life insurance. That’s incredible.
Jim: And he also bought a property and causality agency.
Michael: Give me another story. These are great.
Jim: There’s a guy down in Atlanta, Georgia who heard me speak at a Microsoft conference one day, talking about you couldn’t just wait for people to call you, you had to proactively take solutions to them. And it woke his partner up. So, he came and grabbed him out of another seminar and brought him in to listen to me to talk. And turns out he’s a Microsoft reseller partner. And so, I talked to them about how you could identify business owners. You could probably target the exact size that were going through the migration of going to bigger software and better solutions. He simply went out at the trade show that day and bought that nurture solution for Microsoft partners. Well, within a year, he was back to me a total raving lunatic fan of nurture. Only he said we’re going to go into a different business and we need custom letters. So, will you write those for us? So, we actually helped him create his go to market plan. Well, now he is the largest Microsoft CRM reseller in the world and has achieved Microsoft Gold status quicker than any other Microsoft partner in the world. It’s like wherever nurture goes, things grown.
Michael: Let’s say you’re a small business. Let’s say you’re a Mom and Pop flower store. What’s it going to cost me to get…
Jim: Don’t even thing about it. If you’re selling Lexus or $100,000 home entertainment centers, if you’re selling million dollar homes, nurture makes sense. Follow me? But if I’m selling frozen yogurt or a dozen roses at a time, my customer email is probably a better strategy for staying in touch.
Michael: So, that’s another strategy you’d recommend for the business to consumer. So, nurture isn’t really going to make sense for the business consumer, unless it’s a real high end product.
Jim: I don’t think so. High end, yes, like the cancer centers. The typical patient there could spend anywhere from $100,000 to $250,000.
Michael: What about large-scale business to consumer maybe with some pretty good margins?
Jim: The insurance industry does it, but they target owners of business where the appropriateness of the target market is very appropriate for direct contact where the percentage of success is much higher. All those financial services companies use one-to-one and permission-based marketing strategies; drip strategies that we’re talking about. But they only do it on the proven affluent. They don’t use it as a way that the small business would have to use it on everybody.
Michael: But this same concept can certainly be effective for a business to consumer?
Jim: You read about the greatest car salesman in the world. At the time, he had women handwriting birthday cards for him.
Michael: Yes, Joe Gerard.
Jim: Yes, Joe. And then there’s the guy in the life insurance industry years and years ago named Ben Solomon; back before there was anything automated. He had farm wives using manual typewriters typing up notes to prospects. So, nurture is not new. Top producers have always known that—like Mae West said, out of sight is out of mind and out of mind is out of money, honey. That’s why I tell people, be careful who you show it to because everybody falls in love with the idea. But everybody can’t execute it. Companies like the million and down size, are always broke. They’re always understaffed and they’ve always got so many urgencies that to try to do something as complex as automating relationship building can be the straw that broke the camel’s back. I tell people study very carefully. Go see people you size that have done it. Now, the guy Brian I was telling you about in Wisconsin, he only had two people when he started. But, he had a full time devoted go to market person, Laurie that was running his admin. Now, I think he’s got a staff of a dozen. But, it can be done. But, I’m just saying I don’t want to go out there and offer a solution and make it sound like it’s as easy as cracking an egg because it’s not.
Michael: What percentage of the client that you work with fail to set the system in place?
Jim: The smaller you get; the more likely it gets.
Michael: I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s 50% or higher. Is that accurate?
Jim: You mean the small individuals who buy the box?
Michael: Yes.
Jim: I’ll tell you the average ramp up time is 11 months.
Michael: To get it going?
Jim: From the day they receive it until the day they get in place.
Michael: The bigger the company, the longer it takes?
Jim: No, shorter.
Michael: Really?
Jim: Oh, yes, and the higher the likely they’re going to implement. They’ve got an infrastructure. They have somebody in charge of marketing. They’ve got somebody that owns the process and understands what’s going on. And they have a budget and software and IT people. And I’m not talking about the multi-billions. I’m talking about the $10 million, $20 million companies have enough staff that they can keep something like this going. It’s like farming, you can have the best laid out farm in the world and the best seeds in the world, but if you don’t water and feed them every day, they’re going to die.
Michael: Before you even establish a deal with it, that should all be outlined that you’re going to need…
Jim: That’s why I try to teach even the resellers. I’m saying that even though everybody wants it and it makes an easy sale, don’t do it; they’ll hate you. Make sure that this is good for them. Make sure that this solution will actually help them succeed and not just help you sell better. And I’ve got a book that I’d like to give away. So, if they go to the website and click on Jim’s book at free stuff. Just give me an email address and I’ll download the 101 best tips I’ve ever seen for nurturing customers.
Michael: That’s great.
Jim: And I’ll download it free for them.
Michael: Well, you’ve given me a lot of great, great information. It’s very interesting. I’m going to go to the site when we hang up and look into it a little bit more. Now, when you called, you also said you had an idea. Was it anything specific that you were thinking about?
Jim: The content. I’ve got literally dozens of action plans we have.
Michael: Of actual nurture systems?
Jim: For different people.
Michael: Yes.
Jim: I was thinking…
Michael: I was going to ask you if you have packaged all these together for all the different industries; an actual campaign.
Jim: Yes, we’ve got, for example, at our website, down under what’s new and under industry specific nurture plan, there’s a list of about ten different industries where these complete nurture solutions are available. That’s the $1,495 one. When people say I’m going to do this anyhow, I’m saying then don’t spend more than $1,500 with me. That will give you stock letters. That will give you the instructions on how to get going. From then on, you’re on your own.
Michael: So, for $1,500 you’re going to get ten campaigns, different industries with… Jim: No, you’re going to get one of those ten.
Michael: One of the ten depending on your industry?
Jim: Yes. Michael: If you want another one, it’s going to be another $1,500?
Jim: Yes.
Michael: When set up a campaign, who retains the copyright to the campaign?
Jim: I do.
Michael: You do.
Jim: You have permanent license. You don’t have rights to sell it or to loan it or to use it for somebody else at all. It’s just like software, one time use.
Michael: Do you do all the writing yourself?
Jim: Yes, for my stuff. But I have a group of writers.
Michael: Give me an example of where you would use a group of writers.
Jim: Often and as this Microsoft software expands, they’re going to way overflow our ability to write. So, we’re right now in the process of training and certifying writers to do nurture campaigns for clients so that when somebody calls in from Cheboygan and says they just bought the nurture module from Microsoft and they want to have an action plan written, we don’t have to tell them tough luck.
Michael: Very good. I’ll go to your site. I’ll take a look at that. Great information. I’d like to get it up on my site for people to hear.
Jim: You’re a good man.
Michael: Thanks for taking the time. Very nice talking to you and I will be in touch Jim: We’ll work together.
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